HGG.P2P - Versionsgeschichte

HGG am 17. März 2012 um 20:43 Uhr

2012-03-17T20:43:10Z

← Nächstältere Version		Version vom 17. März 2012, 22:43 Uhr
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	:HGG 2012-03-13 Great stories, but for me they have nothing to do with an ''analytical'' approach to the phenomena to be studied.		:HGG 2012-03-13 Great stories, but for me they have nothing to do with an ''analytical'' approach to the phenomena to be studied.
	:MB 2012-03-13 I'm guessing you have a very narrow definition of analytical, as in "the concepts that <I>, hgg, am using" .. these are not at all "stories", but historical examples of analogous processes, and proto-mode <is> an analytical concept		:MB 2012-03-13 I'm guessing you have a very narrow definition of analytical, as in "the concepts that ''I'', hgg, am using" .. these are not at all "stories", but historical examples of analogous processes, and proto-mode ''is'' an analytical concept

	If you use Alan Page Fiske's relational grammar http://p2pfoundation.net/Relational_Grammar,		If you use Alan Page Fiske's relational grammar http://p2pfoundation.net/Relational_Grammar,

HGG am 17. März 2012 um 20:42 Uhr

2012-03-17T20:42:25Z

← Nächstältere Version		Version vom 17. März 2012, 22:42 Uhr
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	independently ..		independently ..

	HGG 2012-03-13		:HGG 2012-03-13 Great stories, but for me they have nothing to do with an ''analytical'' approach to the phenomena to be studied.
			:MB 2012-03-13 I'm guessing you have a very narrow definition of analytical, as in "the concepts that <I>, hgg, am using" .. these are not at all "stories", but historical examples of analogous processes, and proto-mode <is> an analytical concept
	Great stories, but for me they have nothing to do with an ''analytical'' approach to the phenomena to be studied.

	MB 2012-03-08

	If you use Alan Page Fiske's relational grammar http://p2pfoundation.net/Relational_Grammar, you can use a gradation. True		If you use Alan Page Fiske's relational grammar http://p2pfoundation.net/Relational_Grammar,
			:MB 2012-03-13 it's here: http://p2pfoundation.net/Relational_Model_Typology_-_Fiske
			you can use a gradation. True
	p2p, contribute to your ability, use on basis of need, is only possible		p2p, contribute to your ability, use on basis of need, is only possible
	with presently abundant resources, and today this is the digitized		with presently abundant resources, and today this is the digitized
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	"True p2p, contribute to your ability, use on basis of need,..." does not address those questions at all but has for me a smell of Cockaigne.		"True p2p, contribute to your ability, use on basis of need,..." does not address those questions at all but has for me a smell of Cockaigne.

			:MB 2012-03-13 well, it happens to be the well-known defintion of communism by Marx, whom I don't consider 'utopian', but you're free to differ, in this case it refers to a system where anyone can contribute, and it is made available for universal use ... this is just the reality of today's digital commons (on the condition you have access to the network)

	By the way, there is an interesting history of the commmons and its division during the 19th century: Germany (and not only Germany) was divided in those times in dynastic areas of very different sizes and with very different traditions in the cameralistic management of the commons (Allmende). The most progressive achievements are related to the name of C.F.Gauss in the area Braunschweig-Hannover, but are based on the very early (as in 1746) land-surveying in that region. So accounting of the commons played a very central role for prospective of that region until 1843, when the privatization of the commons started.		By the way, there is an interesting history of the commmons and its division during the 19th century: Germany (and not only Germany) was divided in those times in dynastic areas of very different sizes and with very different traditions in the cameralistic management of the commons (Allmende). The most progressive achievements are related to the name of C.F.Gauss in the area Braunschweig-Hannover, but are based on the very early (as in 1746) land-surveying in that region. So accounting of the commons played a very central role for prospective of that region until 1843, when the privatization of the commons started.
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	:HGG 2012-03-13 this addresses the reproductional needs of a productive context and is called "trusts" in capitalistic economy, isn't it?		:HGG 2012-03-13 this addresses the reproductional needs of a productive context and is called "trusts" in capitalistic economy, isn't it?

			:MB 2012-03-13 I don't think you can equate the two, though I can see why you could make this comparison ... a trust has to preserve the capital, usually financial, or land ... a phyle creates added exchange value, by creating 'rival' value (such as labour time) 'on top of the commons' ... but like trusts, it can't really deplete the commons without also weakening itself, so there is the analogy .. the people who wrote about phyles , neil stephenson in the diamond age, and david de ugarte of lasindias.net, were specifically inspired by the venetian and florentine guild enterprises and their international networks across the mediterranean ..

	you can practice open book management http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Book_Management (and other forms of p2p		you can practice open book management http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Book_Management (and other forms of p2p
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	:HGG 2012-03-13 Any capitalist is required to "practice open book management" - not for the employees, but for the "general capitalist" represented by the financial authorities and the accountants etc., so this is clearly only a modification within capitalism.		:HGG 2012-03-13 Any capitalist is required to "practice open book management" - not for the employees, but for the "general capitalist" represented by the financial authorities and the accountants etc., so this is clearly only a modification within capitalism.

			:MB 2012-03-13 have you ever worked for a corporation? first of all, even U.S. public enterprises, probably the most exposed, keep A LOT secret, second the ovewhelming majority of capitalist accounting is fake ... and generally
			speaking everything in a corporation is secret/discrete by default ... even internally

			so, this is NOT what I meant, there are probably just a handful of corporations practicing full open accounting and open supply chains and production data (I only know of one belgian company, Namahn, publishing open internal accounting of its payroll) .. what we're talking about is making the holoptical practices, which are the default practice of open knowledge and free software projects, the default for all corporate practice within the specific commons network

	open supply chains and other forms of coordination and negotiation.		open supply chains and other forms of coordination and negotiation.

HGG am 17. März 2012 um 20:36 Uhr

2012-03-17T20:36:52Z

← Nächstältere Version		Version vom 17. März 2012, 22:36 Uhr
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	dependent on granted monopolies and could not reproduce itself		dependent on granted monopolies and could not reproduce itself
	independently ..		independently ..

			HGG 2012-03-13

			Great stories, but for me they have nothing to do with an ''analytical'' approach to the phenomena to be studied.

			MB 2012-03-08

	If you use Alan Page Fiske's relational grammar http://p2pfoundation.net/Relational_Grammar, you can use a gradation. True		If you use Alan Page Fiske's relational grammar http://p2pfoundation.net/Relational_Grammar, you can use a gradation. True
Zeile 136:		Zeile 142:
	documented in Allen Butcher's ongoing study of communal economics. see		documented in Allen Butcher's ongoing study of communal economics. see
	http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Community_Economics		http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Community_Economics

			HGG 2012-03-13

			I have not yet read about Allen Butcher's ongoing study of communal economics, so my remark can only be preliminary:

			[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_L%C3%B6wy Löwy] wrote several years ago in a paper, here the reference of a german translation of the french original:
			:M. Löwy: Destruktiver Fortschritt. Marx, Engels und die Ökologie. Utopie kreativ, Heft 174 (2005), S. 306--315.

			::"Finally Marx defines, again in vol. 3 of the "Capital", socialism not as "ruling" or human control over nature, but through control of material exchange with nature: The freedom in the area of material production 'can only be in the way, how societal humans (der vergesellschaftete Mensch), the associated producers, rationally regulate their metabolism with nature (diesen ihren Stoffwechsel mit der Natur rationell regeln), bring it under common (gemeinschaftliche) control, instead of being ruled by its blind power' (MEW 26, 828). "

			I left some german words to express my point in more clarity since the semantics of an english translation is in many cases slightly shifted.

			"True p2p, contribute to your ability, use on basis of need,..." does not address those questions at all but has for me a smell of Cockaigne.

			By the way, there is an interesting history of the commmons and its division during the 19th century: Germany (and not only Germany) was divided in those times in dynastic areas of very different sizes and with very different traditions in the cameralistic management of the commons (Allmende). The most progressive achievements are related to the name of C.F.Gauss in the area Braunschweig-Hannover, but are based on the very early (as in 1746) land-surveying in that region. So accounting of the commons played a very central role for prospective of that region until 1843, when the privatization of the commons started.

			MB 2012-03-08

	If you build an ecology of phyles http://p2pfoundation.net/Phyles around		If you build an ecology of phyles http://p2pfoundation.net/Phyles around
	the commons, you can practice open book management		the commons,
	http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Book_Management (and other forms of p2p
	accounting (http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:P2P_Accounting), open supply		:HGG 2012-03-13 this addresses the reproductional needs of a productive context and is called "trusts" in capitalistic economy, isn't it?
	chains and other forms of coordination and negotiation. These techniques,
	routinely practiced in free software and open hardware, do not require the		you can practice open book management http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Book_Management (and other forms of p2p
			accounting (http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:P2P_Accounting),

			:HGG 2012-03-13 Any capitalist is required to "practice open book management" - not for the employees, but for the "general capitalist" represented by the financial authorities and the accountants etc., so this is clearly only a modification within capitalism.

			open supply chains and other forms of coordination and negotiation.

			:HGG 2012-03-13 ... very well known to capitalists for hundreds of years (it's even the core of capitalism in difference to former societies, to replace contributions and duties by negotiations).

			These techniques, routinely practiced in free software and open hardware, do not require the
	commons logic, they can be practiced even within reciprocal exchange logics.		commons logic, they can be practiced even within reciprocal exchange logics.

	You see it cannot be dominant, and you don't want to explain it, but that		You see it cannot be dominant, and you don't want to explain it, but that
	would be interesting, because in my opinion, in open source modes, it is		would be interesting, because in my opinion, in open source modes, it is
	already dominant. For example, if you study the relation between IBM and		already dominant.

			:HGG 2012-03-13 I completely agree that there is a dominance change, the very difference is the question "of what"? I claim - a new mode of capitalistic production, as capitalistic production changed modes in the last 300 years several times (approx. every 50 years).

			For example, if you study the relation between IBM and
	Linux (see the PhD thesis of George Dafermos), but also other		Linux (see the PhD thesis of George Dafermos), but also other
	corporate-commons dynamics, it seems clear that the value creation is		corporate-commons dynamics, it seems clear that the value creation is
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	based on the open design, then its core value is derivative from the open		based on the open design, then its core value is derivative from the open
	design commons.		design commons.

			:HGG 2012-03-13 It's a matter of interpretation - I see only a more dominant role of rational organization of _re_productional processes. This is very new for Marxists, but not at all for capitalism. The for Marxists of all times strong notion of "profit" was known as a very weak one to bookkeepers for a long time, since there are "revenues before and after taxes", "before an after depreviations" etc. A sound value theory should address those questions (and even the differences between book keeping and mind keeping).

			MB 2012-03-08

	:HGG I have no idea what that means "100% commons"		:HGG I have no idea what that means "100% commons"
Zeile 170:		Zeile 210:
	Abandoning the gold standard is a design decision, making sovereign money		Abandoning the gold standard is a design decision, making sovereign money
	creation illegal through the European treaties is a design decision.		creation illegal through the European treaties is a design decision.

			:HGG 2012-03-13 No, its a political decision with short wave and long wave consequences. "Design" means for me, they understand what they do in the sense as it is required from a technician to understand what she does not to be accused not to deliver work as "state of the art".

	Abolition negative interest rate (13th cy.France after the defeat of the		Abolition negative interest rate (13th cy.France after the defeat of the
	Albigeois) is a design decision. Abolition of the Worlg in Ausria is a		Albigeois) is a design decision. Abolition of the Worlg in Ausria is a

HGG am 17. März 2012 um 20:25 Uhr

2012-03-17T20:25:24Z

@@ Zeile 159: / Zeile 159: @@
 based on the open design, then its core value is derivative from the open
 design commons.
 === Commons and money theory ===
@@ Zeile 339: / Zeile 378: @@
 For me the main goal of human doing was and is and will be the "cooperative shaping of the private living circumstances". In the Oekonux context we had a long debate on "Kooperenz" http://www.freie-gesellschaft.de/wiki/Kooperenz - a two-word concatenation of cooperation and the German "Konkurrenz", that translates as "competition", but is connotated with concurrency that sheds a very special light on competition.
 Communism was all the time an utopia. Marx punished the old french socialists as "utopians" and claimed, his way of understanding communism is a "scientific" one. If you follow up the history then you see, that each new round of technically triggered reconstruction of the capitalist society is accompanied with a "new communism" that developes a new utopia of dreams of desired social consequences of the new technical means. p2p is obviously _also_ in that tradition. The first such dream was that on Cockaigne. So I have the strong feeling that communistic ideas are not very helpful for a dry analysis of the nowadays circumstances of living and changes of living. But I think that communism has much to do with Blochs "principle hope" as the very inner driving force of the world (including a hypothetic "communistic one").
 ==== What's about market? ====

HGG: /* About the core of a sound P2P economic theory and its relation to Marx' value theory */

2012-03-17T20:20:05Z

About the core of a sound P2P economic theory and its relation to Marx' value theory

@@ Zeile 113: / Zeile 113: @@
 I have no idea what that means "100% commons" - is this a world without contradictions, what are the ways to resolve conflicts about the use of "the commons" etc.? The point are not the "commons" but the reproduction modes of the "commons". Division of labour in the last 10.000 years went only into one direction, the direction of refinement. Nowadays we are faced even with special languages to communicate about reproductional needs and ways of particular reproduction modes of parts of the "commons". Capitalist money was not "designed" and cannot be "redesigned" in an easy way without a clear understanding of the multiple social functions that are transported with accounting.
 Money is only the tip of the iceberg, a very formalized way to realize accounting. Christian Siefkes had developed plenty of ideas in his book http://peerconomy.org/wiki/Main_Page how to "transform accounting" (e.g., autions of unloved duties). My objection that even his mathematical formulas (see appendix A) are just the same as in Leontieff based modeling of capitalistic economy left unnoticed upto now.
 === Commons and money theory ===

HGG am 15. März 2012 um 08:22 Uhr

2012-03-15T08:22:51Z

Änderungen zeigen

HGG: /* Ideas about transition to a commons regime as major production mode */

2012-03-15T08:00:40Z

Ideas about transition to a commons regime as major production mode

← Nächstältere Version		Version vom 15. März 2012, 10:00 Uhr
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	movements.		movements.

	~~Smz~~ 2012-03-05		SMz 2012-03-05

	Instead of an "organic completion" we have always discussed in terms of		Instead of an "organic completion" we have always discussed in terms of

HGG: /* Ideas about transition to a commons regime as major production mode */

2012-03-15T08:00:23Z

Ideas about transition to a commons regime as major production mode

← Nächstältere Version		Version vom 15. März 2012, 10:00 Uhr
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	integrated logics for a counter-economy that can exist alongside the social		integrated logics for a counter-economy that can exist alongside the social
	movements.		movements.

			Smz 2012-03-05

			Instead of an "organic completion" we have always discussed in terms of
			"contradictions". The most condensed form is the five step model:
			http://keimform.de/2011/pattern-10-germ-form/

	=== Commons and Knowledge Commons ===		=== Commons and Knowledge Commons ===

HGG am 15. März 2012 um 07:57 Uhr

2012-03-15T07:57:08Z

@@ Zeile 1: / Zeile 1: @@
-== Schnipsel aus einer Diskussion auf der [http://www.oekonux.org/journal/list/index.html jox-Liste] im März 2012 ==
+== Schnipsel aus einer Diskussion auf der jox-Liste im März 2012 ==
 Startpunkt der Diskussion: http://www.oekonux.org/journal/list/archive/msg00849.html
@@ Zeile 50: / Zeile 50: @@
 I think, this should be the core of a sound P2P economic theory. I've not seen even the beginning of such a theory yet.
 === Commons and money theory ===

HGG am 15. März 2012 um 07:55 Uhr

2012-03-15T07:55:03Z

@@ Zeile 1: / Zeile 1: @@
 == Schnipsel aus einer Diskussion auf der [http://www.oekonux.org/journal/list/index.html jox-Liste] im März 2012 ==
@@ Zeile 8: / Zeile 7: @@
 * JR: Jakob Rigi
-=== About the relation of a p2p theory to  Marx' value theory ===
+=== About the core of a sound P2P economic theory and its relation to Marx' value theory ===
 MB 2012-02-28
@@ Zeile 35: / Zeile 34: @@
 communities have dealth with reciprocity-based arrangements without the use
 of classic money. See http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Community_Economics
 === Commons and money theory ===